Expert Analysis – UM Professor Mary Ellen Campbell discusses the role of nonprofits

Mary Ellen Campbell is a professor of management at the University of Montana School of Business. She brings an array of real-life experience in corporate America to her classes, including plenty of experience with nonprofit organizations. She has decades of experience watching how businesses and nonprofits interact with each other, and this conversation focuses on what happens at that lively intersection.

By MIKE McINALLY for Western Montana InBusiness


This is part of the second of six weekly sections in the Sunday Missoulian, each spotlighting a different segment of the growing economy of Missoula and Western Montana.

Today: The Power of Nonprofits

10/24 Fifty Years of Success

10/31 Small Business, Big Success

11/7 The Outdoors Economy

11/14 Picture the Progress


InBusiness: Tell me about the nonprofit classes that you teach at the University of Montana. How did you start doing that?

Mary Ellen Campbell: First of all, I really specialize in the nonprofit area. In the class, I lean toward the charitable nonprofits, (but) not solely. For instance, the class took on the Missoula Downtown Association last time as a project as well as the Community Medical Center Foundation. Students are asked to do all kinds of things for nonprofits in Missoula, and the School of Business has numerous requests. Students will try to do as best they can, what they can for the people who call in. Meanwhile, and this is always a caveat that I give my students’ "clients," is that they’re students. And so, because they’re students, they don’t have (all) the answers yet, but they’re willing to apply what they’ve learned. That’s why we like the class in the business school, because the class has an experiential component. That is our school’s particular branding. We have students trying to apply what they’ve learned. We do that as much as we can, given the number of students we have – we have something like 1,500 majors in the business school.

InBusiness: What sort of work would a student be expected to do in that nonprofit-marketing class?

Campbell: Well, for instance, one question from the Downtown Association might be, what should we do to increase traffic for downtown merchants? Students come up with some ideas. The association was looking at offering a downtown university, it had a concept going, and some students were deciding whether the association should take that on. Students really take a look at the market, what’s out there, what the interest might be. We try for students to gear client projects as closely as possible to things student understand, such as the student markets. So students go through the basic marketing plan, marketing-communications plan particularly, which is my expertise. (My expertise in the School of Business is that I’m the marketing-communications person or the management-communications person. I’ve worked in the field for many years.)

I also decided that the business school needed a nonprofit course in this because I have provided, for numerous years, consulting services for nonprofits, large nonprofits, I specialize actually in foundations, particularly in the health-care field in particular. … I have set up what we call affinity marketing groups in many places in the world based on some publications that I have written. … So I thought, well, we ought to be addressing the issue of how to help the charitable nonprofits here at home. I always like to remind people that nonprofits deal with many types of organizations such as trade associations like the AFL-CIO or the Bar Association or the AMA or country clubs. Nonprofit isn’t just a charitable concept; that seems to be lost on lots of people. They think of a nonprofit and they automatically think of Big Brothers and Sisters or Friends to Youth or whatever.

For the students, I try to bring business perspective to the charitable nonprofits. And the reason is that business tends to be where the current student interest is. And so, go with the student interest and then try to expand from there. … Gen Y students want to live well. They’re not really so interested in pitching a tent and living off the land.

InBusiness: Well, God bless them for that. It’s about time.

Campbell: So they’re demanding a salary. And it’s a salary that frankly that a lot of our nonprofits here in Missoula don’t seem to be able to offer. Anyway, I’m trying to help students acquire the tools to get out there and be of value to any nonprofit they could work for. So that’s what the class is, that’s why I offer it, because it’s a specialty of mine. I’ve worked in it, I’ve enjoyed it and I think it’s an important contribution to the social side of things in our lives. How business faculty can make our lives better, is to take our skills into the nonprofit arena (for) the charitable-social groups that we deal with. … On the other hand, nonprofits are good employment opportunities for students; many of our students can’t enter a for-profit organization here in Montana, because there aren’t many, (but) they can have employment in some of the nonprofits, if they’re willing to work for a little less than market, but they can still be paid to work for a nonprofit. And I think that has some attraction to both the students and nonprofits. …

I’ve seen a big change from nonprofits that were set up based on passion and funded on passion. They have bake sales and car washes, and that was enough. Now, we have so many causes – and I think it’s related to the political arena – lots of things the private sector never had to deal with before, (nonprofits are) having to fund. We now need money to fill in for services that the government used to fund. It’s interesting to me to note that there seems to be some myth in our society that somehow things will be taken care of. Unfortunately, hospitals go out of business because they can pay out and have nothing coming in. And this is true with just about any kind of service nonprofits are providing. We’re not going to have pure water unless citizens take care of the water. We’re not going to have pure air unless someone gets behind it. …

The other change that I see in nonprofits … is that there now seems to be the "business of nonprofits." For example, we might have 15 nonprofits dealing with water issues. I asked someone the other day, to name five nonprofits that deal with the rivers. He was a river person, and he just went (she snaps her fingers) five, right, just instantly.

And I said, OK, and you probably didn’t even name all of them that you know. And I said, the issue is I see a great proliferation of independent organizations with nothing to carry them except passion. And so we have to get beyond the passion, because what happens is when you base a nonprofit solely on passion, get the passion and it is subject to being trendy, then whatever the "it" is – save the water, save the kids, save the bears, save the trout – as soon as the trend starts to wane, then the backing starts to disappear. So I am very concerned about nonprofits without business structure.

A nonprofit is not a business. If it were a business, it could make money based on its constituents. But really, it can’t. It’s asking for help for someone else. It’s not selling a product. … We’re trying to get either grant money or donations, either in-kind or flat-out money. Nonprofits ask people who have money to help those causes and people without money. People who fund nonprofits put a lot of trust in those who run nonprofits know what they are doing with their money. A perfect example of where that didn’t work is the example of the ice arena.

InBusiness: Missoula On Ice.

Campbell: Missoula On Ice. And we had people with a passion, we had a need, we had demand, we had all of these things come together but somehow it didn’t work. And so, we have people giving money, and if it doesn’t work, they’re going to stop giving money. They’re not going to believe that there can be anything behind that passion unless we show them that we have a business structure. And that’s just one example.

InBusiness: You’ve worked for nonprofits, I’ve worked for nonprofits. The point you’re making about passion and what happens when the passion dies out and you need to be able to have something else to drive it is an excellent one. It seems to me that that’s the point where, if a nonprofit’s going to fail, that’s where it’s going to fail.

Campbell: That’s right.

InBusiness: How do you get past that point? What are the warning signs, first, that the passion that a nonprofit has been born in is starting to fade and you need to be looking for a different model?

Campbell: Well, you know as well as I do, that you get a cost-benefit analysis running, and you can find out how many people you help or how much water quality changes or whatever. You have some sort of analysis that you can report back to your board and your constitutents. Many times the board is representative of the constituency. I think oftentimes nonprofits don’t realize that their constituents involve public stakeholders – there needs to be more reports to the public on how the nonprofit impacts their life.

I think, very frankly, that one of the big problems is that the passion dies when people don’t see that there’s any benefit. And that has to do with how well a nonprofit communicates. That’s where I can help. I have my students ask, "What are you telling people that you do? How do people know about you? What is your brand?" I help students help nonprofits brand themselves. … If people feel that (a nonprofit) is of benefit, they will move heaven and earth in Montana to make sure that you stay in business. I’ve seen that over and over again. If they aren’t sure what you’re doing, if they aren’t sure that you’re of value, they’ll let you die on the vine, too. They’ll turn off the spigot. …

If a nonprofit is not set up (properly) – and this is where the business part comes in – passion is not enough. It has to know how to keep the books, how to manage, how to market, how to write grants, how to speak to different constituencies.

A perfect example of a nonprofit run well is Missoula Youth Homes, which started as a tiny idea and has grown into a spectacular service that all of us in Montana can be very proud of. A great deal of the credit should be given to Geoff Birnbaum, he’s just phenomenal at making sure all these things happen. He works at it as a business, yet he’s got passion. … Still, he makes certain that his organization works, that he can pay the bills on Monday. …

People come in and ask me all the time, how do I set up a nonprofit, and my first question is, do you need to? Is there one already there? Can you work within an umbrella organization? Is there an organizational structure? Can you pay an accountant? Who’s going to signify that these books have at least some sense of reliability? These questions, over and over and over again. People who work in nonprofits need business sense, even if they have business experience. …

The first thing I do in consulting with a nonprofit is look at the books. The first thing anybody should do is look at the books, to see where money is going. Are they in good shape? If you have to raise money to get through each year, that’s real tough. Many nonprofits here are raising money month by month, trying to meet payroll.

Smart nonprofits know that passion for the cause isn’t enough. They might not necessarily know how to do what they need to do, but they know they have deficits, I have talked with lots of different people who’ve said, "we’ve got this artsy troupe or we’ve got some sort of something that we want to have changed, we don’t want to be worried about trying to pay our executive director next month. We should be able to meet payroll without any problem on a yearly budget, an annual budget. How do we do this?"

InBusiness: Is this part of the reason why nonprofits are looking for people who are business people to serve on boards?

Campbell: Absolutely, Plus, nonprofits believe that business people will come with money to give.

InBusiness: That’s right too.

Campbell: So either you’re going to serve in kind, meaning you’re going to bring nonprofits your expertise … or you’re going to come with money, or maybe both. What nonprofits don’t perhaps quite realize as readily is that it’s (generally) people who fund nonprofits in the United States. Corporations provide somewhere between 8 and 10 percent.

InBusiness: I saw something this morning from a recent report that said 83 percent of all giving in the U.S. in 2003 and 2004 came from people.

Campbell: From individuals. And corporations make up that 8 to 10 (percent). Then there are granting agencies, 3 to 4 (percent). But when we start looking at it, it’s the people (who) are behind the giving. I believe that the businesses, especially in a town of this makeup, and in a state of this composition, where there are so few areas to go to tap into resources, that business people are important because they have a job. (Laughter.) They have some disposable income. And they have connections to others who have jobs.

I don’t believe that giving happens at every age. I think there’s a time when one starts to think about disposing of wealth. And certainly the values of certain generations tend to be very important. So you have to key into those values. It’s amazing how tight people can be at a certain age and how wonderfully responsive they are to civic needs at another.

InBusiness: Going back to the start, what do you think is responsible – and you hit on some of this in an earlier answer, too – for the proliferation of nonprofits? Is it people see a need that government used to take care of, and as government has withdrawn, nonprofits spring up to fill that gap, or is there something else going on that you see?

Campbell: Nonprofit work is clean work in a lot of people’s minds. Perhaps they think, if I don’t find that there’s a job or position for me in an existing nonprofit, then why not start my own? I don’t see it all that different from business. People are always looking for an opportunity.

People have a passion for the most amazing things. It’s not only to save the snail darter, which was a cause in the 60s. Here in Montana, it’s save the white wolf, the gray wolf, the pink wolf – each person has his or her own belief that he or she has a particular something that needs to be saved or helped or protected.

And two, they could secure a position in a nonprofit that they’d feel was a good one, one where they were providing service to the community as well as making a living. I don’t believe that people go into nonprofits to make big money. Nonprofits allow them to do what they like, what they believe in, and working for a nonprofit would be a win-win situation for them.

InBusiness: But you suggest that the market operates the same way it does for for-profit businesses. If there are 10 nonprofits with the same goal, there’s going to be competition among those 10 and some will prevail and some will fall by the wayside.

Campbell: Exactly. I think that’s what we’re seeing. We see nonprofits go in and out of the news or popularity or whatever you want to call it, and I think it’s because … one, it’s very hard work and it’s work, in a funny way, that many people are not prepared to do. They have to go out and seek funding oftentimes. Now I’m talking about the charitable nonprofits, not just regular nonprofits. … In essence, (charitable nonprofits) have to sell. And I hear over and over again … "I don’t like to sell, I don’t want to sell." My Gen Y students don’t plan a career in sales, that’s nothing they want to do. But selling is the number-one thing you do when you’re trying to get people on board to provide money, to provide services, to provide support. You’re selling your cause. It’s difficult. You have to have a very tough ego. You’ve got to be told no, and not resent it. You’ve got to be able to take that. It’s not easy to go up to someone and say, you have money and (my cause) is a good cause. You can offend people very easily, so you have to have excellent communication skills. I think that’s not something we stress in this society. In fact, if anything, we are very blunt, frank folk.

One thing that I stress with both clients and students is just because somebody has money does not mean that person is going to give it to you. Just because I am able to support a cause doesn’t mean it’s a cause that I am impassioned about.

Every single time I sit in a meeting on any kind of board of almost any nonprofit, almost the first words out of someone’s mouth in the room was, let’s take this to Denny Washington. Well, Denny Washington can’t possibly fund everything that everyone wants. I mean, he’s going to have his own causes, or the foundation that the Washington Corps. fund, they’re going to have their own particular nonprofits, charitable nonprofits, that they feel fit with their mission.

What I find is that people don’t quite understand that a donor has to have some connection between the cause and the giving. It just can’t be because the cause needs money. All people associated with a charitable nonprofit believe there’s a need; they wouldn’t be there if they didn’t.

InBusiness: How many meetings of a nonprofit board have you been at where you can feel the temperature of the room drop as soon as the topic of fund-raising comes up? Nobody wants to do that.

Campbell: Nobody wants to do it. I don’t blame them. It’s not easy. And yet, someone has to. Now, there are a few people in this society, I guess they’re the ones with the passion for the cause, who don’t mind knocking on the doors. But you can’t be impassioned by 10 causes. It’s too much effort. So you have one or two causes you’re willing to work for and maybe just even one that you’re really willing to go blood, sweat and tears, do the hard thing and, as we say in the business, "make the ask." And then follow up on it until it’s done. "Closing the deal," we always say in the business situation, is the hardest thing to do. And you not only have to ask, you have to close it too. You have to make sure the check comes in. People are reticent when it comes to trying to persuade other people to give money. They’re much more willing, in fact, to send you a check themselves. They’ll buy 50 tickets to something and then distribute them rather than ask their friends for money. I think that’s very understandable. So, from a business professor’s standpoint, I try to help students understand that when you’re dealing with nonprofits, the first thing is to remember that you’re marketing. It’s just flat-out matching your consumer or your supporter with the cause. And that’s what we do when we market: We try to put the right product with the right customer at the right time. And that’s what we do with nonprofits: The right cause with the right participants at the right time. So you can see how these business skills are transferable, even though the nonprofit’s structure is not the same.

InBusiness: As nonprofits proliferate, you do tend to see the same people at the same nonprofit events or boards, the same suspects are tapped again and again. I was thinking along these lines on the comment you made a few moments earlier, you can’t have passion for 10 events. When do you start to run the risk of leaving people dry, not just in terms of money but in terms of enthusiasm and time and passion?

Campbell: Well, you can run the risk any time you’re not making a difference, I think. If I don’t feel like I’m making a difference, I’m fast out the door. If I think I’ve stayed too long at the fair, I mean, if people just see me, me, me associated with a certain nonprofit, then that’s not so good either. I think you’re right, in this town, you may see the same suspects, but only at the social occasions.

InBusiness: I think that’s probably right.

Campbell: On different boards, you get a lot of diversity. I’m surprised at the diversity on our boards in this community. At least you might get people who serve in the same areas, like health and human services, maybe they might be on two boards. But you won’t necessarily see them at Ducks Unlimited and Save the Trout (and also on the) health and human services (boards). People tend to divide themselves into an interest area. The reason you see the same people over and over again at social functions is that there are only so many Missoulians who can pay, or are willing to pay, a hundred dollars for dinner or seventy-five dollars for golf or whatever the fund-raiser charges.

Generally, fund-raisers are not, for the most part, for most organizations, where they get their money. They call them fund-raisers but they’re really friend-raisers. If if anyone who’s ever put on an event looked closely at the expenses of the event, it’s astounding compared with what they make. People say, wow, we made a hundred thousand dollars, and I’ll say, and how much do you need in your overall budget? That will be just a fraction – a hundred thousand dollars doesn’t even begin to cover what they need. And there are some exceptions. There are some exceptions. I think that maybe the (UM) rodeo team gets most of their money from fund-raisers, I’m not sure about that. But for the most part, for any nonprofit with a major budget, the fund-raiser is a problem of staffing, and of volunteer time. You have events to increase visibility more than to raise money.

InBusiness: That’s a point that some boards, some nonprofits are slow to understand, but that’s exactly right. Once you’ve add in expenses and staff time, the amount of money that you’ve raised looks less and less and less impressive.

Campbell: That’s right. There’s no question about it. If these people spent all the same time going out and soliciting others, they might have more money. The problem is that people give to successful causes, so you need highly visible events occasionally – maybe even free – but you have to have some high visibility (because otherwise), your success as a community participant might be doubted.

InBusiness: You talked about looking at the books as the first thing you did when you wanted to look at a nonprofit. What specific things are you looking for? If I’m trying to get a feel for a nonprofit, what are the things I’m looking for?

Campbell: I like to see either how much money or product they’re distributing, how many people they’re impacting. What does it cost to run the business part of the nonprofit, the administrative costs? How much does it cost to raise money – for instance, does it cost them 18 cents or 75 cents (per dollar raised)? And those figures now are always posted in the national journal of philanthrophy, and it’s pretty amazing. … I like to know what the reserves are. I always look at the standard books, the balance sheet, the revenue statement, how are they set up to deal with the money once they get it? Is it sitting in a bank account? Is it in a drawer? Do they have an investments group, and if they do, how is it invested? Is it on junk bonds? It’s all these kinds of things that the financials reveal. It’s very interesting that that’s probably the last thing that most board members want to deal with. There will be a few, but most of them don’t want to even look at the financials. They want someone else to deal with that.

InBusiness: Because it seems somehow beneath the cause.

Campbell: It’s below the cause. That’s really true. Board members want it done right. They don’t want to have anything come back on them for not having it done right. But, really, they’re in it to help a particular cause or be associated with a particular cause or they are in it for (one of) 101 reasons.

What makes a board member want to serve? Boy, that’s a question. Their motivation is as varied as there are nonprofits. From "it’s a place where I can make business contacts" to, "I’ve always loved history and I don’t want to see it go away" and everywhere in between. There’s an article, "108 Reasons Why Someone Serves on Your Board." … There are many reasons, such as a friend asks a person to serve. Once, I know, I persuaded a person serving on a board because I had been the person’s professor 10 yeras before and he didn’t want to say no.

InBusiness: It all works.

Campbell: It all works. We do our strongarms. Sometimes, supervisors, people’s bosses are serving on boards and they say, hey, we need you – what is the person going to say?

InBusiness: That person is going to say "yes."

I wanted to ask, and this is a little vaguer, but it ties into something that Bob Boschee, the manager of the Smurfit-Stone mill in Frenchtown, was saying. And there’s a business that gets hit up fairly constantly, for money, for the United Way drive, whatever –

Campbell: And he has served forever on wonderful boards. He just has a terrific social conscience. Both Bob Boschee and … Bill Bouchee (of First Security Bank), both of them have served and served and served this community. We’re very fortunate to have them.

InBusiness: Bob Boschee was talking about this involvement with nonprofits as just part of the price of doing business, this social and civic engagement. In point of fact, in Missoula and Missoula County, businesses provide a lot of the engine that makes nonprofits work, both in terms of volunteer time and in terms of financial contributions as well. Bob paints it more as a sense of obligation, and he was trying to drive at that question: To what extent is this required or expected of business? Is there an obligation of business to get involved in this? Does the level of obligation change depending on the size of the business?

Campbell: (My) business majors will come and say, I’m a business major, why should I study about nonprofits? First of all, that means they don’t understand what nonprofit means. … But nonetheless, after they get past the nonprofit concept, I say to them, "Who supports the arts in the United States? Who is supporting the young painters, who’s supporting the young writers, who’s supporting the young dancers?" It’s often grants from business foundations. And this has been going on now a long time. This is not something new out of the 2000s, this is something that started way back when…. (Now) maybe it’s not wholeheartedly based on altruistic motives, maybe business people are doing it because they want to sit with Fleming at the Met, maybe they’re doing it because they want to show off that they can do it, but nonetheless, they support the arts in the United States.

I’m fascinated by seeing the difference between what businesses do in the U.S. versus what they do in the world. We have a tremendous social/civic conscience here that I think enriches our culture. I’m not saying that they’re going to probably fund Save the Streams if they’re polluting upstream. They will pick and choose. But in terms of the arts, there’s no question that businesses and business people have been a huge backer of the arts. … They not only buy the art, they give grants so that Judith Jameson can have a dance troupe that tours the United States. So I tell my students, you ought to know something about it, because your assignment in your business if you’re in corporate culture America, might be to be the arts liaison to a certain nonprofit organization. … So, yes, I think in many big corporations, it is a longstanding (expectation) that you will serve (nonprofits); you’ve made your money, you better give part of it back to society.

Small business, I’m surprised at how it comes forward in Missoula. … (Small) business here astounds me, how much they’re willing to give, both in dollars and in in-kind product. I’m astounded. I’m very impressed by the small-business support we get for just about anything that is worthwhile. I mean, the product may say Coca-Cola, but there’s a bottler here that’s gotta come up with some of that, it’s a distributor that’s got to contribute. People I think believe that Coca-Cola must be paying all the freight.

InBusiness: I don’t think so, it’s the bottler.

Campbell: It’s the bottler. It’s the small-business person that’s attached to some of these big corporations. I think the small-business person probably doesn’t get enough kudos. Maybe they do.

InBusiness: Probably not.

Campbell: Small businesses really come through. In Missoula, for example, Denny’s Copy Stop does all the Xeroxing for a club I belong to. Well, Denny’s is only Denny’s little copy stop on the corner of South and Higgins. … He’s willing to pitch in and does mailings. That’s just an example of the kind of cooperation I see between the nonprofits and the small business of our town. And very frankly, those margins in small business are slim.

InBusiness: And they’re not turning 30, 40 percent margins.

Campbell: That’s right. You’re not talking about AT&T. You’re not talking about Mobil Oil. You’re not talking about Xerox. You’re not talking about Microsoft. I mean, all these people are wonderful and they’re giving back to society, but you’re talking about "give ’till it hurts?" That’s the small-business slogan here. I’m just really impressed.

InBusiness: You’re right, they come through, even though they’re working 70 hours trying to make a business go and they have a family, you know, on the side, they do all of that stuff.

Campbell: They do all of that.

InBusiness: You talked about Bob Boschee and Bill Bouchee. Who else in the business community has really, in your view, gone above and beyond in terms of service to nonprofits?

Campbell: (It’s) pretty obvious that a lot of the law firms have come through, and the banks and the car dealerships. Russ Piazza out of Piper Jaffrey, he works hard for Community Medical Center, never charges a dime, never sells anything that he is involved in. He just gives. I could have a list of dozens of people in this town; the problem is if I name some and not others, then I get (in trouble). But as examples, we all know what Kathy Ogren does, we all know about Cynthia and Charlie Bryan and Bruno Friia. But there are lots of people out there who don’t get any kudos, who are volunteer and contribute because they feel that it’s something they should do. I mean, (Barney) Jette Jewelry Design gives things to be auctioned. Those are real diamonds and real gold. Worden’s is always pitching in. And The Depot always is good for dinners. Mike Munsey is always trying to serve and trying to help serve on boards. As we go on, more and more people pop into my mind. And then you have the old standbys – the Talbots and Ty Robinsons, who are still going strong and helping whenever they can.

InBusiness: The Talbots are incredible. So is Ty.

Campbell: Ty’s incredible. And he takes this on; he takes this community very seriously. That said, we all need to help. And what I think is so wonderful is that you get people who should be retired but aren’t and they spend as much time working for society in retirement as they did for money. They’re making a better community for us. What I see today is that in certain student generations, I think the younger students, the Gen Y students in particular, are going to volunteer. The Gen Xers aren’t particularly good volunteers.

InBusiness: Really. Why is that?

Campbell: I don’t know.

InBusiness: You’re familiar with (Robert) Putnam’s "Bowling Alone," which says each generation seems less engaged in its community than the previous. You see that coming back a little bit and younger people a little more willing to get involved with their community?

Campbell: I do. I see Gen Y much more interested in volunteerism than Gen X. I’m not saying anything that other people haven’t written about. Gen Xers just aren’t as interested. Just like the older boomers, the ones who went through the 60s, are much more willing to give time and money than the younger boomers, who in some ways had it better.

InBusiness: It’s good to hear about Generation Y. Who knows what happened with Generation X?

Campbell: You don’t want to paint a generation with a broad brush that says no one in the generation volunteers. But, by contrast, the Gen Yers, are just more socially conscious. That doesn’t mean that they’ll keep a job and make money to give. But they sure will give you whatever they’ve got. Which maybe is not much, because in many instances they don’t want to hold down a stready job. Gen Y is notorious for qutting jobs left and right. If the job or the work doesn’t please them, they quite. You know, a lot of jobs are not pleasing at age 22.

InBusiness: You know, there are a lot of things about jobs that are not particularly pleasing at age 46.

Campbell: That’s right. There’s a downside to any job.

InBusiness: Fascinating.

Campbell: It is. And they’d rather be unemployed than do something they don’t want to do. Now, maybe they have a secret that we need to pay a little more attention to.

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